WHEN YOU SHOP for meals—whether or not produce or meat or eggs—and see a label that claims “natural,” what do you suppose which means? At its most elementary degree, I suppose I at all times thought it meant greens grown on the fields of an natural farm—like, within the soil, or animals raised in its pastures.
However more and more, as hydroponics have change into extra widespread, soil isn’t at all times a part of the natural food-raising equation.
Right now’s visitor is Linley Dixon, a Colorado-based natural farmer who can also be co-director of the Actual Natural Challenge, an advocacy group of farmers who develop within the soil and collectively search to guard the integrity of the natural label’s which means on meals. Actual Natural Challenge is holding a daylong convention Oct.14 in Hudson, N.Y., with a fantastic lineup of presenters from the natural neighborhood, and we’ll hear about that, too.
Learn alongside as you take heed to the Oct. 2, 2023 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant beneath. You may subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify or Stitcher (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
the actual natural challenge, with linley dixon
Margaret Roach: Hello, Linley, thanks for coming in from the greenhouses and the fields to assist and discuss to me about this. Thanks.
Linley Dixon: Hello, Margaret. I’ve been a very long time fan of the podcast and your writings.
Margaret: Yeah. So once more, you’d suppose I’d know this stuff. Having been a vegetarian most of my life and having been a shopper of natural merchandise ceaselessly and ever and so forth, you’d suppose I would definitely be alerted. However till speaking to you over current years, I actually didn’t perceive the distinctions. And that is one thing that’s not only for greens and herbs and so forth, however for pasture-raised animals, for even blueberries—blueberries may be performed with out soil. And so inform us a bit of about what Actual Natural Challenge is, and what the inspiration of it’s, and the way it acquired began. What was the impetus?
Linley: Certain. Proud to do it. At its coronary heart, it’s a farmer-led motion. So I’m the co-director with Vermont tomato farmer that you could be know of as a result of he’s nearer to you, Dave Chapman. He’s in all probability the most effective natural tomato farmers within the nation. And he grows tomatoes beneath about 2-1/2 acres of those Dutch-style glass greenhouses within the soil, which you need to differentiate now. You didn’t should beneath the Natural Normal. However in recent times—and he was the one which began to note this as a result of he actually does promote a variety of wholesale—he was competing with tomatoes that kind of tasteless and mealy and discovered that they have been hydroponic.
And he thought, “Properly, that’s a mistake.” And I truly met him when he had raised the difficulty with a bunch of different farmers, principally in New England, but it surely was spreading throughout the nation that hydroponics was being allowed. And while you’re an natural farmer, you’re just about all consumed with the well being of your soil. And so this actually struck a chord with a variety of farmers throughout the nation. So I met him at these conferences the place we have been making an attempt to reform the natural program and guarantee that natural stayed targeted on soil well being.
Margaret: Proper. As a result of as an natural gardener for many years, and in my writing and in my pondering, I consider that what you simply stated. I consider “feed the soil, not the plant,” that I’m constructing soil well being, and that’s the inspiration from whom all blessings stream. You already know what I imply? That’s the idea of the entire meals chain, the entire life chain, so to talk. So it surprises me that rising hydroponically could be natural. So the natural customary was what from the mid-’90s or one thing, the nationwide standards-
Linley: They wrote the regulation, the Natural Meals Manufacturing Act in 1990, but it surely took 10 years to really create requirements based mostly on that regulation, and it was a really democratic, farmer-led course of. And so there have been a variety of skeptical farmers at the start, as a result of the USDA hasn’t at all times beloved or supported natural, they usually have been nervous at hand it over to them. However as a result of the method included this concept of a Nationwide Natural Requirements Board and there was going to be a variety of stakeholder suggestions within the course of, the farmers acquired on board. And it was in 2000 that they began implementing to type of the nationwide customary. In fact, there have been at all times these, and I’m certain in your space it’s the NOFAs and the MOFGAs, however there’s out west the CCOF; all of them had their very own requirements. And the concept was to have type of an ordinary throughout the nation that was the identical.
To make an extended story quick, I believe all of the farmers got here collectively across the hydroponic situation. However there have been issues from the very starting, the place the USDA didn’t actually implement the requirements, though the regulation is a extremely good customary, the enforcement was missing from the very starting, principally round getting animals out on pasture. I imply, they have been certifying these massive rooster barns. And it’s to the purpose the place while you enable a decrease customary, it actually drives out the upper customary, simply because beneath the identical label, it’s a less expensive technique of manufacturing.
Margaret: Proper. In fact. In fact. And so what you simply hinted at is that this isn’t simply hydroponic versus within the soil for vegetation, it’s additionally animals raised in barns, in buildings, primarily, enclosed, that aren’t pasture-raised. And so for these of us who love going to the native suppliers the place we reside and seeing it says that—I imply, the phrases was once issues like “free-range” or no matter, but it surely’ll say “pasture-fed” or no matter it says that makes you at all times suppose, “Oh, that’s higher.” You might be keen to pay the premium worth as a result of you possibly can visualize that. And this, though a few of these animals, and the eggs from chickens, and a number of the meats and so forth may be labeled natural, the animals weren’t dwelling in that imagined idyllic for situation in any respect [laughter]. And but they’re natural.
Linley: And many individuals are shocked that we turned an add-on customary. It’s like if it’s gone so fallacious, why would we require natural certification first? However what we see with these different phrases, such as you talked about, issues like pasture or animal welfare, it’s like if you happen to don’t have an ordinary—it’s occurring to “regenerative” proper now—then it simply will get so simply co-opted. So there truly is a extremely good regulation in place. And so the concept of making an ordinary could be the hope is to really apply stress for reform in order that we are able to save all this work that basically farmers have labored on over the course of their lifetime.
Margaret: So that you’re a farmer, you’ve been an natural farmer, you’re in Colorado, you increase greens. How massive is your farm and the way lengthy have you ever been doing it? Any specialties? Is there something that you simply’re only a super-expert in [laughter]?
Linley: Properly, Dave and I hit it off as a result of we’re each tomato farmers at our core. I imply, he began with oxen and each vegetable you possibly can think about, and actually specialised in tomatoes. However we nonetheless have many alternative crops on our farm. However Dave truly mentored me within the final 5 years for tips on how to develop tomatoes higher in a greenhouse. And it actually modified the economics of our farm. And it’s one thing that I believe anyone can do truly in the event that they study just a few little strategies, whilst a house gardener, issues like grafting and even simply trellising so that you simply’re harvesting at eye degree, that transforms actually the benefit of tips on how to produce tomatoes, after which additionally simply whether or not or not they rot on the bottom or on the vegetation. In the event that they break up, you actually can get double the yield fairly simply with some fundamental strategies.
Margaret: So that you stated greenhouse and earlier than while you have been speaking about Dave Chapman’s operation, you stated greenhouse otherwise you stated… Truly you didn’t name it greenhouses, you call-
Linley: Glass greenhouses.
Margaret: Glass greenhouses, proper. And so simply once more, so individuals visualize, we’re speaking about on high of soil, so it’s to regulate different components. And tomatoes specifically I believe have a variety of points—as everyone knows, who develop them [laughter]—with fungal ailments and soil splash and spores transferring up the ladder of the leaves from the underside to the highest, and all types of issues. And I’m completely oversimplifying, however within the extra managed setting that you simply’re describing, and it might even be a excessive tunnel, I suppose, a easy, not-greenhouse-but-greenhouse, we are able to management a bit of extra of that. And increasingly more farmers have gone to that, and even a few of my backyard mates have gone to that at the very least making an attempt to reduce a number of the havoc. The havoc.
Linley: Even one thing so simple as grafting will double your yields, and that you could truly do. I do it with a bit of Johnny’s stand the place there’s a tent that goes over the seedling stand. And so a few of these strategies are literally fairly simple to adapt by yourself gardens.
Margaret: So that you’re grafting the tomato, the number of tomato, you want to eat, to reap, onto a rootstock that’s sturdier and extra immune to issues. Is that what you’re doing?
Linley: Immune to issues, but additionally simply meant to develop actually massive and robust.
Margaret: O.Ok. So each.
Linley: So the roots simply get a a lot larger space within the soil.
Margaret: Proper. In order a longtime natural farmer—and we each agreed that “feed the soil, not the plant” is the inspiration of natural agriculture, whether or not in a backyard setting or a farm setting. However are there different issues that you’d say to this viewers listening who’re house gardeners principally, which might be the foundational rules that you simply comply with that give you the results you want? Whether or not the littler hints, like the particular one you simply spoke about, say grafting, or that you simply’re rising in a greenhouse, however different issues that you simply suppose are actually foundational to success in natural rising?
Linley: Yeah. Dave at all times instructed me it’s not anyone tip, but it surely’s the end result of all of my data that makes this all work. However one that basically caught with me is he taught me to really use my compost purposes by making use of them each two to 3 weeks from a bucket [above]. Simply sprinkle the compost proper on high of the drip strains (that’s how we irrigate our tomatoes, due to all that soil splash). Do this as an alternative of including all of the compost at the start of the season, which could create an anaerobic setting relying on how sizzling your compost is, however actually simply sprinkle it on high of the drip strains. Each couple of weeks creates a fair launch from the compost of vitamins. I bear in mind Eliot Coleman, who’s an advisor to our challenge, and I acquired to fulfill him. He gave me the easiest definition of natural farming that I’ve ever heard, and it was so easy, so it simply actually caught.
He stated that “natural farming is so simple as including natural matter to the soil.” And I imply, that’s simply says all of it. as a result of if that’s occurring, you’re mitigating the necessity for any of those exterior fertilizers and even pest management, as a result of if you happen to’re being attentive to the soil natural matter actually locks up and slow-releases vitamins. In order that means, I’m certain you’ve observed, Margaret, if you happen to apply an excessive amount of nitrogen, the aphids come, the bugs come. So that spotlight to how a lot, how slowly these vitamins are launched, that’s the prevention that natural farmers…
And there’s some insurance coverage in that natural matter that it’ll be launched over time. So you may have much more flexibility. You will get issues fallacious within the natural matter, type of adjustments it for you so it finally ends up figuring out accurately. I believe that definition, if you happen to can maintain that in thoughts, I imply it’s natural farming, the farming of carbon. Natural chemistry is the chemistry of carbon. So excited about all of that natural matter, that’s what natural farming is.
Margaret: So Eliot Coleman, you stated, and he’s an advisor to Actual Natural Challenge, and a variety of us gardeners know him from his actually essential books, one of many early voices for natural, not simply farming-
Linley: For gardening.
Margaret: Sure, precisely. And to inform us about his ways. And so he wrote actually, actually essential works and has been an inspiration to many over time. So no shock that he’s on board with this.
So that you stated you simply used the phrase “paying consideration,” and never in the identical means I’m going to ask you about it. However I additionally suppose that’s one of many issues is that—and I take advantage of the expression “you possibly can’t set it and overlook it”—when you’re the steward of dwelling issues, you possibly can’t simply stick them within the floor or sow the seed after which stroll away and return at harvest time [laughter]. I believe vigilance is one other actually essential ability and tactic of an natural grower, particularly who’s not going to have the ability to rush in with some “treatment,” some chemical treatment, if issues begin to go off. However watching I believe is actually essential. And I assume that you’ve a vigilance practice-
Linley: You do-
Margaret: … on the farm.
Linley: … otherwise you get in bother, proper?
Margaret: Sure. So to me, that’s one other one of many issues.
Linley: I believe scale is an fascinating situation in natural. They’ve by no means actually restricted scale, however I believe inherently it’s scale-limiting as a result of we discuss of as farmers, the eyes-to-acres ratio. You may’t let the acreage get so massive that if you happen to’re a standard farm and also you miss a pest outbreak within the nook of a area 100 miles away or 100 acres away, you’re all proper, you possibly can simply go get a sprig for that pest. However as an natural farmer, you don’t have that as type of a simple repair, so that you do, you need to examine.
We truly had a whitefly outbreak this yr and we’ve by no means had that. And also you’ve acquired to catch it early they usually can take out a whole crop. And so we’ve acquired bio-control that’s a part of that course of. You place little sticky tape over the areas or proper within the areas the place you see the outbreak, and you need to get on it early. As a result of we even have completely different greenhouses, and a few of them are hoop homes and in our hoop home we missed it, and it took the crop out. And in our greenhouse, we have been in a position to catch it and use this bio-control course of.
So yeah, simply protecting on high of it, we don’t have that simple repair, so we lose our crop if we miss it. And that’s a part of why biodiversity is so key, as a result of if we do lose one thing as a result of a very dangerous yr for a pest, then actually, our enterprise doesn’t rely upon needing a sprig. We are able to simply let that crop go, and it’s a very good yr for one thing else.
Margaret: Proper. Yeah. So, I imply, tomatoes, it sounds such as you’ve upped the sport and also you’ve found out methods to get round a number of the main points with these, I really feel like… Are there different crops which might be essential ones in your choices or is that the first driver of the enterprise?
Linley: That’s the one which definitely makes all of it work, financially. However I’m experimenting as a result of within the greenhouses you possibly can’t develop your personal fertility, we actually rely upon compost for our fertility. However out within the fields, I’ve been experimenting currently with tips on how to have our aisles in order that they’re creating the fertility for the rows fcompostAnd that’s been actually enjoyable to look at, as a result of what’s occurred is the aisles have expanded a bit of bit extra, and our entire cropping method has modified. And what we do is we mow the aisles into the rows after which we’ll incorporate that “inexperienced manure” is what farmers name it, that type of cowl crop.
We incorporate that into the rows, however you don’t need to mow them abruptly since you need a few of them to flower. And the bio-control that is available in on the flowering weeds from the aisles is fairly superior to look at.
So so long as you possibly can maintain that biology biking, that’s one thing that’s new on our farm that I’ve been kind of obsessive about. As a result of if you happen to can develop your personal fertility on the farm, you then don’t have to fret about any… You convey stuff in off the farm and it may need herbicide carryover, or there are environmental points with the place it was harvested or mined. So it’s type of the very best degree of environmental stewardship is if you happen to can determine tips on how to develop your personal fertility on the farm. And I haven’t perfected it. I don’t know if I ever will, but it surely’s been enjoyable to strive.
Margaret: That’s fascinating. So that you’re in a way rising a few of your cowl crops, as you say, within the aisles in between the rows the place you or machines-
Linley: Stroll.
Margaret: … would stroll or drive. Attention-grabbing.
Linley: It’s stunning as a result of then the tractor wheels are at all times going over pasture on naked filth, so there’s resiliency there. However you additionally don’t lose any house actually to develop that fertility as a result of it’s truly the place you’re strolling anyway, and also you don’t should weed it too. That’s an exquisite factor.
Margaret: Attention-grabbing. So in doing the Actual Natural Challenge, do you discover that when you may have occasions—such as you’re having one truly not removed from me in Columbia County New York in mid-October, which has a fantastic lineup of audio system and so forth. However do you discover that while you exit and also you current and discuss to individuals about Actual Natural Challenge, are there some astonished? Is it the identical couple of questions each time, or the identical aghast appears to be like [laughter] about the identical facet of it?
As a result of for me, one of many issues was, and I discussed it on the very starting shortly, the truth that blueberries have been being grown hydroponically—I imply, even woody vegetation, have you learnt what I imply? Even shrubs. As a result of to me, talking of helpful bugs and having an setting, a biodiverse setting, I imply, blueberries, wow. These are a few of my helper vegetation right here within the backyard. They appeal to pollinators they usually simply do all types of excellent issues in addition to making blueberries [laughter].
Linley: Yeah. They reside in all probability 40, 50 years. However we now have an incredible podcast. And so everyone is in a distinct degree of understanding of those points. And so I’d advocate listening to that podcast if you happen to’re confused by this and need to perceive it higher. And Hugh Kent, who’s a blueberry farmer, he has a few them. His most up-to-date was a chat at Eco Farm, and truly if you happen to can watch that one, as a result of you possibly can see his slides, it’s fairly stunning the environmental affect of those hydroponic farms. They usually’re actually plastic, on plastic, on plastic, these massive sandwiches, and all of the fertility is coming in.
After which the vegetation are performed in 4 to 5 years, the complete plastic farm will get thrown out, after which they begin it over once more. So the environmental affect is fairly extreme, and it’ll show you how to perceive the best way an natural farmer thinks. We interview a variety of farmers, however there’s cooks and authors on there, too. It simply helps you suppose extra holistically how natural farmers are excited about their farm. And it would show you how to perceive why issues like grazing and soil well being are so essential to us.
Margaret: Yeah. So you may have, what, possibly 1,200 farms who’re members of the Actual Natural Challenge at this level all in several areas of the nation, is that proper?
Linley: Yeah. And these are farmers which might be agreeing to a different inspection on high of the USDA inspection that’s a part of this program. In order that’s fairly astonishing to see how shortly it’s grown in such a short while. Farmers get this, they perceive the necessity for this. [Below, the USDA organic label, and the Real Organic Project one each require a separate inspection.]
Margaret: I wished to ask you extra about that. So I believe on the convention in October, you’re going to do one of many shows, and I believe you’re going to speak about type of what units these member farmers aside and the way can customers assist them, and assist the work of this group. So inform us a bit of bit in regards to the spotlight reel of that a part of the convention.
Linley: Yeah. I believe most individuals would simply need to hear what we’re guaranteeing if you happen to search for this sticker. And so we did discuss in regards to the soil well being and pasturing, however we additionally make sure that the entire farm is assembly these natural, these increased natural practices, as a result of there’s a variety of fraud that occurs when you may have a break up operation, when you may have some standard manufacturing and a few natural. And one of many greatest ones, there was just some acres of natural manufacturing that had an natural seal, after which a variety of standard stuff went by way of that natural certificates. So the entire farm must be natural.
There are employee welfare protections. So that is actually simply type of pushing the bar ahead. Actually when the farmers stopped being concerned and simply handed it over to the USDA, that entire idea of steady enchancment beneath the seal that we actually had with our regional chapters went away. So we’re simply making an attempt to convey that again, and proceed to enhance over time.
Margaret: And non-farmers—how do customers interact with Actual Natural Challenge? I imply, I assume it’s a nonprofit, so that you in all probability have donors, and do individuals simply attend your occasions and assist these farmers and-
Linley: We’ve acquired this nice web site, so go to the web site. You may see the convention that’s at Churchtown Dairy on October 14th, very first thing. After which we’re truly releasing a brand new web site in a few month, however you possibly can go now. There’s a ton of movies, podcasts, the letters. We’ve got one thing referred to as Actual Buddies the place it’s a ebook membership, however a part of this group is to ask eaters to assist the farmers alongside. And that may imply simply telling your pals about your favourite podcast episodes, or going to your co-op and saying, “Do you may have any Actual Natural merchandise?” In order that hopefully your farmers regionally can get a bit of little bit of an edge as a result of they’re actually having bother getting markets and the value level is so low, so you possibly can assist them out by requesting actual natural merchandise in your shops too.
Margaret: You’re in Colorado, and what zone are you technically, the place you farm?
Linley: Oh gosh, there are such a lot of microclimates. So I’d say we’re a 6-something, but it surely is dependent upon the yr, and local weather adjustments creating all types of adjustments.
Margaret: It’s. It’s.
Linley: So I don’t even know anymore.
Margaret: Yeah. So that you talked about tomatoes. So are you winding down your season or do you do off season crops as effectively? Do you have-
Linley: So the humorous factor right here is definitely it doesn’t get actually within the single digits so far as chilly, however our season’s actually quick, as a result of we’re excessive elevation. So we acquired our first frost in all probability this weekend. It’s at all times across the third week of September. And our final frost is, oh gosh, in the course of June typically. So we now have a few 90-day window, which is wow.
Margaret: Wow!
Linley: And we get these type of passing hailstorms too as a result of that’s what occurs within the mountains. In order that’s why I’ve all of those completely different ranges of tunnels. And even out within the area, we now have a variety of Reemay and methods to guard the crops on the sector.
Margaret: Attention-grabbing. Properly, Linley Dixon, co-director of the Actual Natural Challenge, thanks for giving us a 101 on this topic. Very, very counterintuitive to suppose that natural doesn’t imply grown within the soil, however thanks for alerting us to that. And I hope I’ll discuss to you once more quickly.
Linley: Thanks a lot, Margaret,
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