I SAW A VIDEO REEL on social media the opposite day of a harvest of shallots, and it made me notice that I haven’t grown these scrumptious little Allium bulbs in perpetually, and who is aware of why?
The harvest video was on Hudson Valley Seed’s Instagram account, and certainly one of that New York-based natural seed firm’s co-founders, Ok Greene, talked with me about rising shallots and their extra generally grown cousin, garlic. He additionally shared another concepts for succession sowing of edibles whose planting time nonetheless lies forward—whether or not for fall harvest or to over-winter and having fun with within the yr to come back.
Learn alongside as you hearken to the Aug. 7, 2023 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant beneath. You’ll be able to subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify or Stitcher (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
rising shallots and extra, with ok greene
Margaret Roach: Hello, Ok. How is that this wild climate right here treating all of you on the seed farm?
Ok Greene: I can’t consider you needed to open speaking concerning the climate.
Margaret: Oh, he’s laughing.
Ok: Thought we had been going to maintain this constructive in the present day. No, we’re good. It’s simply been moist, moist, moist, moist, moist. And so, that’s been a problem, however… One thing yearly.
Margaret: Precisely. The brand new regular. I noticed that reel on Instagram, that video, and it was you had this particular gadget, this machine, that was harvesting the shallots. And by the way in which, I don’t even know if we are saying SHALL-lots or sha-LOTS [laughter].
Ok: Yeah. Relies on how fancy I’m feeling. Typically we are saying shallot, however then when we now have all the things harvested and laying out on tables, drying within the excessive tunnel, I wish to say it’s the shallot chalet [below].
Margaret: Oh, cute.
Ok: You stroll in there and it’s simply pungent. You’ll be able to actually scent a part of what makes shallots so particular by way of each their aroma and their taste. However, yeah, we now have that particular device partly as a result of our values and ethics as a seed firm are about producing as a lot as we are able to ourselves in our area. And with shallots, which in fact is totally different than seed manufacturing is, we have to develop the precise shallot and harvest it and dry it. Persons are planting it, virtually like planting a clove of garlic.
Margaret: Proper. Proper. It’s just a little bit totally different from a seed, though it’s a form of [laughter]... We use it as, like they are saying, seed garlic or seed shallots or no matter.
Ok: Proper.
Margaret: And you’ve got a few totally different varieties, do you?
Ok: Yeah, and there’s some variations. I feel they’re all very easy, I might say. It’s a part of what makes this time of yr so thrilling is to say to your self, “What can I plant now? I did all this work and the beds are prepped, and I did all this superior work and I received some issues out of my mattress. So what can I do now?”
The 2 varieties that we now have this yr are the ‘Dutch Crimson’ [below] and the French gray [top of page], they usually’re each scrumptious. They each actually deliver that particular someplace between a candy onion and garlic taste, nevertheless it’s its personal particular taste.
They’re planted the identical, by way of planting it such as you plant a clove of garlic, a pair inches deep, good quantity of compost, like 8-inch spacing, 18-inch row spacing, actually comparable, and that they’re going to remain within the floor for the winter. After which, they’re going to provide and be harvested the subsequent yr.
Margaret: I feel in one of many descriptions in your web site, you talked about this form of umami taste of 1 or no matter. So, not precisely the identical, however there’s a sweetness to them?
Ok: Yeah, they’re sweeter. They’re extra like a candy onion, however they’ve that garlic taste. However you’re all the time on the lookout for acquainted phrases to explain flavors, when it’s its personal taste.
Margaret: Proper.
Ok: To me, after I give it some thought, generally I take into consideration white wine just a little bit [laughter].
Margaret: Oh!
Ok: I’m undecided. There’s simply one thing indescribable about it, which is why they’re form of connoisseur wanted and why they’re actually costly to purchase within the grocery retailer. Truly, it’s one of many issues that’s much more reasonably priced to develop your self than it’s to buy.
Margaret: Certainly. Now, since you went and talked about the phrase rain. After all, for those who hear a sound, it’s the rain that’s simply began pouring down right here once more for the 2000th time within the final 15 days.
Ok: Once more? Meaning it’s on the way in which right here.
Margaret: Yeah, I’ll ship it over in a minute.
Ok: Thanks.
Margaret: However I haven’t grown shallots in a very long time, and the final ones I grew had been what got to me, seed was given to me, I feel it got here from England, from Thompson and Morgan at the moment, and this was a few years in the past. They had been known as banana shallots, they usually had been larger than the common shallot.
Once more, I grew them from seed like I might develop onions from seed, and it was type of enjoyable. They had been, I feel, a cross between an precise shallot and an onion, I feel the breeding. And the taxonomy of all of the alliums confuses the heck out of me. I don’t ever see it actually defined. I see, even the 2 that you’ve, one is in a single species of Allium, in the identical species is onion, and one is in one other species and so forth.
Ok: Proper.
Margaret: You have got that gray conventional shallot, sure?
Ok: Yeah. The taxonomy is issues hold altering [laughter]. And so, we consider taxonomy as this factor set in stone, and it actually isn’t. I feel the one vital factor to essentially consider is it’s an Allium, and that’s sufficient for most individuals. We don’t must overthink an excessive amount of, however they’re just a little bit totally different. The primary variations between the French gray and the ‘Dutch Crimson,’ the French gray is what’s type of known as a real shallot. It’s attention-grabbing, you’ll be able to’t develop the French gray from seed. I imply, you could possibly develop one thing from seeds from French gray, however the one technique to get it to develop true is to plant, mainly, a clove.
Margaret: Oh. It’s like you need to have a clone, a division. O.Ok.
Ok: The ‘Dutch Crimson’ you are able to do both means, however we nonetheless advocate simply doing the clove. It’s simply a lot simpler for folk, particularly this time of yr. However a number of the variations, as a result of there’s so many similarities by way of depth and planting house and time: time-wise there’s just a little little bit of a distinction, which is ‘Dutch Crimson’ shops rather a lot longer in your kitchen than the French gray. That additionally signifies that the Dutch Crimson, for those who needed to hold onto it and plant it a month earlier than your final frost date, like early, early, early, early spring, you could possibly nonetheless get a harvest from these, though we nonetheless advocate planting it on this window of October for our area.
Whereas, the French gray doesn’t retailer as lengthy, and so you actually must plant it if you get it. For us, meaning individuals are ordering now. We ship in October so that individuals get them when it’s time to plant them and don’t have to fret about storing them at house.
I might say French gray, solely fall planted. The Dutch Crimson, higher fall planted, however will be performed within the spring. And I might say, for most individuals, they’re doing each.
Margaret: Oh, attention-grabbing. They’re making an attempt just a little of each. The French gray, I’ve examine it elsewhere and, once more, it’s the one which’s known as the true shallot. I’ve learn that it has type of a more durable…not a shell, however a more durable pores and skin just a little bit. Is it just a little bit totally different in texture on the surface?
Ok: Yeah. Yeah. It virtually seems like a shell.
Margaret: Yeah, that’s what I’ve learn and I’ve by no means had it. I imply, I’ve by no means had it in my backyard, so I’ve by no means seen it uncooked, unprepared.
Ok: It’s stunning, too. The pores and skin virtually has this copper sheen to it. They’re so fairly. After which, if you break it open, it has this pink, white, purple-y type of ombre hue from the tip to the bottom. They’re actually, actually elegant.
Margaret: Once more, the purple one is in, I consider, Allium cepa, the identical genus and species as onion, however I feel this one has, and the names are simply unimaginable, oschaninii, Allium oschaninii, one thing like that.
Ok: Yeah [laughter]. Oschaninii.
Margaret: Yeah, no matter. If that’s even the way in which to pronounce it however who cares? It’s a French heirloom, I feel, as effectively. It’s a really conventional beloved crop.
Ok: It’s. Typically you’ll hear it known as Griselle.
Margaret: Griselle. Proper, proper, proper. After all. You gave us the fast model of fall planting: Now we have a mattress that had one thing else in it; we pulled our tomatoes and we cleaned up the mattress just a little bit, and our shallots might go there the way in which that our garlic might go there. Sure?
Ok: Yep, precisely. I might all the time say add compost. No matter’s been in there has used up numerous vitamins. Whether or not we’re speaking concerning the shallots or garlic, they need good, wealthy soil. So undoubtedly add compost.
The opposite issues that they actually like, they love water. They like good drainage they usually like water, you realize, that factor? [Laughter.] In the event you occur to be someplace the place you’re not underwater for the entire season, you do wish to hold them watered at first. As soon as it’s winter, so long as there’s snow and precipitation taking place, you don’t actually have to fret about it.
Margaret: What’s the yield like? How a lot do I plant? If I’m an individual ordering shallots, how a lot do I plant and the way a lot does it flip into? As a result of that’s all the time the factor with garlic [above] is every clove theoretically has the aptitude of turning into a head, a complete cluster so to talk. And so, what’s the yield like in these totally different shallots?
Ok: It’s much like garlic in that means. It’s totally different if you’re planting onions as a result of one seed is one onion bulb or one onion set is one onion. Whereas, with the shallots, if you plant one clove, it’s going to multiply. So we promote it in half-pound, pound, after which it goes up from there. However for a pound of units, mainly, you’re 40 to 50 cloves in a pound.
Margaret: Oh, O.Ok.
Ok: From there, you are able to do the maths.
Margaret: I see.
Ok: Your yield goes to be six to 10 instances what you planted.
Margaret: Oh, all proper. All proper. And so, the gray doesn’t retailer so effectively, the purple shops higher, in order that’s one that’s going to be keeper, and I most likely would use the gray first if I used to be-
Ok: Yeah. It’s nonetheless keeper. It’s simply not going to final you till the subsequent planting season. Whereas with the ‘Dutch Crimson,’ and doubtless I shouldn’t say this out loud, however with the ‘Dutch Crimson,’ you actually might dangle onto it, harvest it, and simply hold replanting it. Avoid wasting to plant the subsequent season and a few to eat, when you get it going.
However the yield is among the actually thrilling issues about it. The best way to wrap your head round it’s that that one clove goes to show into six and even 10 or 12 cloves. It’s going to develop and cut up, so there’s going to be a cluster. And also you’ll have the ability to actually see it as a result of it’ll be all these leaves, a number of leaves arising.
Margaret: Sure, and that was what was enjoyable in that video, your harvest video. You had been utilizing this mechanized device to show up the strip of soil that had all of the shallots in it. What was taking place is that, at every place the place a clove had been inserted, was a cluster of fading foliage, however beneath a complete cluster of bulbs. It was simply enjoyable to see the multiplication that had occurred underground on this means.
Ok: I typically speak about seeds as one thing, or vegetation, as being beneficiant and form of exponentially beneficiant. Normally, I’m speaking about seeds. You plant one seed that makes a tomato plant. Take into consideration what number of seeds are in all of the tomatoes out of your tomato plant. It’s greater than anybody might ever hold for themselves and plant. And so, we wind up sharing seeds. We’re type of sowing it ahead after we’re a part of the complete life cycle.
However garlic and shallots are like that, too. It’s an extremely beneficiant plant.
Margaret: The one different factor I didn’t ask you about is as soon as we do harvest the subsequent July or every time, I suppose form of like garlic, we do remedy them in a dry place, ethereal place, however out of the solar, appropriate? We wish to remedy them, yeah?
Ok: Yeah. The method, and you may see it at a bigger scale for what we do, however that is for house scale as effectively: You wish to go away the leaves till they begin to die again. You wish to reduce the scapes the identical means that you simply do for garlic in order that it’s placing extra power into the bulb.
You’ll be able to eat the scapes; totally different taste than garlic scapes [above, at Margaret’s]. I feel it’s actually good in a pesto with a number of different issues in it. Lower the scapes, however don’t reduce the leaves. They’re going to sign you, “O.Ok., the leaves are performed placing their power into the bulb.” They’re beginning to die again. However you don’t wish to reduce the leaves if you harvest them. You wish to hold the entire thing intact. All of the cloves which might be hooked up to one another with the dying leaves. Such as you stated, you wish to put that someplace with good airflow, however not in direct solar, to remedy.
The leaves will get type of brittle, and then you definitely’ll see the pores and skin on the bulbs type of shade up. When these leaves are completely dry, then you’ll be able to reduce the leaves above the tip of the clove. You don’t wish to reduce into the bulb itself. After which, you’ll be able to deliver them into the kitchen after that.
Margaret: Proper. So transitioning: It is extremely comparable, as you stated if you had been describing depth and spacing and so forth, similar to garlic. Even the curing sounds very comparable. The sign, studying this barely totally different sign of at what stage to reap, relying on what form you’re rising, whether or not it’s the shallots or which kind of garlic and so forth, and when the scape goes to come back (which, with arduous neck garlic, which is why I prefer it, you get a scape, too). And type of studying the precise timing and all the things of the one you select to develop is all the time attention-grabbing.
I’ve grown garlic for many years and a long time, and I misplaced my garlic for the primary time. I misplaced all of it this yr to the white mildew of-
Ok: Oh!
Margaret: Yeah. Which is that this horrendous, it’s the actually most dangerous horrible fungal pathogen of all alliums, probably, however largely impacts garlic and onions. For a lot of years, it has been in our area, in New York State and in New England and so forth, and it’s a worldwide factor. I don’t know. I did purchase, not from you [laughter], I did purchase seed garlic just lately. And so, perhaps I received it that means, or perhaps it got here in who is aware of how else. I do not know. However I gained’t have the ability to develop garlic in that space anytime within the subsequent 40 years, and I’m not going to dwell that lengthy [laughter], in order that’s the tip of that.
However it sounds very very like rising garlic. Some other suggestions or ahas which might be very totally different about garlic that you simply wish to share with individuals? As a result of I do know lots of people are most likely going to be planting garlic this fall, they usually’re most likely ordering now. I really like the arduous neck stuff since you get that additional harvest with the scapes.
Ok: Yeah. I imply, I really like garlic. Once more, I wish to develop just a little of all the things for the kitchen. Our selection pack really is our hottest.
Margaret: Oh, that’s a good suggestion. That’s-
Ok: There can be totally different varieties however, yeah, there’s the variability pack that individuals love. They’re actually not that totally different. One factor I’ve realized, although, from people who’re colder than us is that they mulch extra by way of their garlic and shallots than we do right here. I don’t actually take into consideration mulching that a lot, and our winters have gotten extra delicate by way of temperature, not by way of different issues [laughter]. I do know that some people who’re colder discover that they’re profitable getting them by means of the winter by mulching.
Margaret: Relying in your zone and so forth. It’s an excellent factor to develop, and there’s a lot else. I simply wish to remind ourselves, as a result of right now within the seed firm, do individuals test in for a packet of this and that as a result of they notice they don’t have sufficient to do a succession of one thing? I imply, clearly, spring might be the most important seed-ordering time, however I wager you see some repeats now, right now of yr.
Ok: Oh yeah. That is such an thrilling second to really feel like your arduous work for all the things you probably did to get your self arrange, and then you definitely’ve been consuming and having fun with your harvest, that that is the second spring now.
Margaret: What are individuals after round now? What do you hear? I might think about salads and different greens can be one factor that individuals are all the time after, as a result of you are able to do so many successions of these. However what sorts of different issues are individuals after?
Ok: Yeah. When it comes to seed, it’s such as you stated, numerous combined greens. Arugula [below], spinach, all of the mustards. Radishes; nice time to throw in one other spherical of radishes. [Above, China Rose winter radish.]
Simply to have the ability to proceed to have that recent consuming, that brightness, in your plate at house and that pleasure of going out,. However it’s issues which might be faster. Additionally, as a result of the day size is getting shorter and shorter, which signifies that the times to reap are getting longer for issues. And so, that’s why we concentrate on these fast sow-and-harvest, one thing like arugula which goes to be actually quick.
Whereas, even proper now for us, we’re simply outdoors of the window of doing a second spherical of peas. However we might have performed peas within the final month and gotten a harvest however now, due to the variety of hours of daylight, we simply wouldn’t get to the purpose. However pea shoots, you’ll be able to sow a lot of peas and for a fast harvest, I imply, if you need that taste, you’ll be able to nonetheless put in peas and do pea shoots.
Margaret: Effectively, you had been one of many first locations that I ever knew about, Hudson Valley Seed was, that had natural subject peas, the type of peas that you could possibly use for canopy crop. In different phrases, a bag that was sufficiently big, not just a little tiny packet of peas, which might barely give me sufficient for a few salads if I used to be utilizing them as shoots [laughter]. You had them in these baggage however but they had been natural. I don’t know for those who nonetheless do this however.
Ok: Oh yeah. Austrian winter pea. The flavour of the Austrian peas. It’s nice to your soil. Talking of issues to place in now, cowl crops. I wish to say you’ll be able to backyard bare, however don’t go away your soil naked [laughter]. It’s simply certainly one of these items the place it’s you set within the work, now maintain it.
Even for those who don’t wish to get a harvest out of it, whether or not you’re placing in an oats and peas combine or the Austrian winter peas or buckwheat, otherwise you’re considering one thing that you simply wish to over-winter, like winter rye. What we’ve put collectively is the quantities of these forms of cowl crops that individuals who have a home-garden scale want, relatively than what we used to see, which is simply 50-pound baggage, which is nice for small farms or medium-sized farms, however not so nice for house gardens. Our cowl crops are very talked-about proper now, and are available in several quantities.
Margaret: Effectively, and once more, with the peas, the nice factor is you could… It’s a lot larger than a single little packet of pea seeds that you simply’d use at one other time, and so you’ll be able to virtually broadcast them. I don’t mean-
Ok: Oh, yeah.
Margaret: After which, let it develop as shoots, and it’s fast and what an unbelievable taste and texture to make a salad.
Ok: I really like them.
Margaret: I imply, they’re simply so scrumptious. I do know individuals who stir-fry them. I do know individuals who simply use them uncooked, once more, as a salad materials, they usually’re incredible they usually’re beautiful trying. After which, you are able to do one other one. I feel you’ll be able to even get a number of cuttings off them, I believe.
Ok: Completely. Lower-and-come-again peas.
Margaret: Proper. Slightly bit south of right here… There’s nonetheless time for peas and farther south completely.
Ok: Proper.
Margaret: As a result of that is best time as a result of it’s going to be cooler than bumping up into the warmth of summer time farther south. However, I imply, such as you stated, there’s that “fall issue” as some locations name it, the virtually two weeks’ distinction, as much as two weeks’ distinction that it could possibly take for one thing to mature with the shorter day size and so forth, the much less intense solar.
The opposite good factor, I feel, moreover the form of salad-y greens, even one thing like kale. Child kale is absolutely scrumptious and super-expensive on the natural produce part. A bag of child kale is umpteen {dollars} a pound, however you’ll be able to develop that. Even for those who’re not going to develop it throughout, which you could possibly for those who coated it, for those who took care of it over the winter, however you could possibly even simply harvest child greens that means.
Ok: Oh, completely. Among the mixes, like our braising greens combine or our final salad bowl combine, mesclun combine, these are nice to do proper now since you’re going to get a range of taste and texture and shade. You’ll be able to sow them actually dense, after which simply, such as you stated, as a child combine, reduce them. You possibly can most likely do two or three rounds of that also.
Margaret: Proper. Nonetheless even within the north the place we’re. The final minute, simply give us a reminder as an professional seed individual, we must always not retailer our leftover seed within the pocket of our gardening jacket or out within the storage [laughter]. Right?
Ok: We get this rather a lot, Margaret.
Margaret: I do know.
Ok: It’s cool, darkish and dry.
Margaret: O.Ok.
Ok: And so, if it freezes, you don’t need it there. There’s only a few seeds that you simply really wish to freeze. You don’t need them to freeze. You don’t need them to have numerous humidity and moisture, and also you don’t need them uncovered to daylight and warmth, as a result of these are all of the issues that the seed is on the lookout for to be like, “Hey, it’s time to develop.” We’re simply saying let’s not give them these cues simply but.
Margaret: Cool, darkish, dry. O.Ok. All proper. Thanks. Effectively, I’m so glad to reconnect on the podcast, Ok Greene from Hudson Valley Seed, and thanks. I’m excited concerning the shallots. Enjoyable forward, I feel, and thanks for making the time. Thanks for coming in from the sphere [laughter] to make the time. I’ll discuss to you quickly, I hope.
Ok: All the time blissful to. Thanks a lot, Margaret.
(All pictures from Hudson Valley Seed besides as famous.)
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MY WEEKLY public-radio present, rated a “top-5 backyard podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper within the UK, started its 14th yr in March 2023. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station within the nation. Hear regionally within the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Japanese, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the Aug. 7, 2023 present utilizing the participant close to the highest of this transcript. You’ll be able to subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify or Stitcher (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).